Tuesday, July 12, 2022

Gun legislation: What does it mean?

pinnacle

Newly passed gun legislation has Democrats and Republicans at odds over what it could mean for Adirondack Park residents and visitors. I spoke with Environmental Conservation Officer Matt Krug about his key takeaways and how it may be enforced in the park. Since that story, state Sen. Dan Stec, R-Queensbury and state Assembly Matt Simpson, R-Horicon, are introducing legislation that would exempt the Adirondacks and Catskills. The Legislature’s extraordinary session is over, so we’ll have to see when and if lawmakers will take up the amendment.


What will newly passed firearm legislation mean for the Adirondacks?

In the wake of the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling that New York’s concealed carry law was unconstitutional, Gov. Kathy Hochul and state lawmakers passed new firearm legislation in a special session last week that has Democrats and Republicans at odds over how it will impact Adirondack Park residents.

The firearms legislation Hochul signed July 1 makes it a felony to possess a firearm, rifle or shotgun in a sensitive location. A sensitive location, according to the bill text, includes public parks, schools, places of worship and any businesses serving alcohol, to name a few. The new law, set to take effect Sept. 1, does not apply to “persons lawfully engaged in hunting activity including hunter education training,” and does not apply to law enforcement. There are some other exceptions outlined in Assembly bill A41001.

Click here to read the full story

Other updates

The Adirondack Park Agency is holding its monthly meeting on Thursday. Of note, the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority will be presenting on the state’s renewable energy goals with a focus on solar. The APA will also conduct a tree planting ceremony in honor of the late Fred Monroe, former executive director of the Adirondack Park Local Government Review Board. Staff will also give an update on their trial of a visitor use management framework on state lands. Agenda and meeting information can be found here: https://apa.ny.gov/Mailing/2022/07/index.htm.

Ending this newsletter with a photo from our hike this weekend up The Pinnacle in Bolton, overlooking Lake George. I somehow caught COVID at the end of June after dodging it these last couple of years. It knocked me off my feet for several days, but I am finally testing negative and feeling much better. My hiking lungs have taken a bit of hit, and the Pinnacle was a great way to get back at it. It’s about a mile up with a couple of steep sections and lots more switchbacks since the new trailhead was installed. I hope you’re all staying safe and healthy. Take care!

I also read through roughly 170 pages of comments submitted to the Adirondack Park Agency about its policy questions regarding wild forest roads. The comment period for that ends July 12. You can read a glimpse of what some have said so far here.

View from the Pinnacle in Bolton Landing. Photo by Gwendolyn Craig

Editor’s note: This first appeared in Gwen’s weekly “Adirondack Report” newsletter. Click here to sign up.

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Gwen is the environmental policy reporter for Adirondack Explorer.




169 Responses

  1. David Pietkiewicz says:

    It’s the same lame, bass-ackward approach to dealing with the escalation of violence in our society and New York, as always, continues leaping (blindly) to the forefront! With all due respect, what criminal, insane or mentally-disturbed person will pay attention and not bring a concealed or other weapon into a “sensitive location”?? Do you know who will adhere? Only law-abiding citizens! Absurd!

    • Nora says:

      Totally agree with you David Pietkiewicz ,Indeed Absurd!! Guess I am now, (amongst allot of folks) a felon since I live within the Adirondack Park !

      They are slowly taking the law abiding citizens rights away while the criminals, insane or mentally-disturbed will walk around carrying weapons while laughing their butts off .

  2. Todd says:

    This may be one of them most absurd pieces of legislation ever passed. Was there any consideration given for sensitive locations like churches that have congregants who are armed to protect them against an active shooter.? People who are hell bent on killing will never be deterred by an additional class E felony. This law just makes the sensitive locations more vulnerable as law abiding citizens will now be unarmed. I think the Adirondack Park would be better served if they banned snowmobiles as they claim more lives in the adks every year then guns have

  3. Michael Tomaino says:

    How should you move forward? Stop actively attacking honest citizens Constitutional rights. Seems obvious to me that hochal and her minions have blatantly defied the SCOTUS and also broke the law by ignoring the very constitution that they ‘swore’ to honor and protect. Denying honest Americans the right to protect themselves from the very criminals that democrats protect for some reason is the very definition of insanity. What honest peace officers will enforce these ridiculous laws to attack a citizens Constitutional rights? Their sworn duty is to protect our rights, not defy them..

  4. Joan Grabe says:

    Please stop going to the ramparts on this one. No one wants to take your legally acquired guns – just keep them out of sensitive areas, courts, schools, churches, grocery stores etc, strengthen gun carry laws, registration, age limits and other common sense restrictions. Do you have a driver’s license, a voter registration card, use your seat belts, have auto insurance, home owner’s liability insurance ? – all regulations that touch way more of us than gun ownership.

    • Dana says:

      Joan,

      The NRA has a tenuous-at-best grasp on congress and SCOTUS. They cannot allow ANY chinks in their alleged 2nd amendment armor as they know they will likely collapse like a cheap suit if their membership becomes enlightened. The rest of the world seems to have more sense than the voters here that allow this political nonsense to continue. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually Americans will see the logic in reasonable gun control.

      That being said, I don’t believe this particular legislation is very good the way it is written. The spirit of the law seems reasonable, but some of the letters are pretty illogical.

    • Michael Tomaino says:

      Everything you’ve stated is wrong. In particular “nobody wants to take your guns”. You’ve advised keeping guns out of “sensitive areas”? How do you suppose to accomplish keeping criminals from following your suggestions? Its certainly not by denying honest citizens their constitution right to protect themselves…

  5. David Gibson says:

    Gov Hochul, and the bill sponsors in the legislature all say publicly that the bill does not apply to the public’s Forest Preserve or to private property in the Adirondack Park (and presumably, the Catskill Park). I am a private property owner in the Adirondack Park. Should this exclusion be explicit? Sure. Amend the bill to be explicit. Meanwhile, it seems clear from what the bill sponsors and the Governor are saying publicly that possession of firearms on private property within the Adirondack and Catskill Parks ( legally distinct from public parks and playgrounds) and on the public Forest Preserve (also legally distinct) in the Adirondack and Catskill Parks for legal uses is perfectly legal and OK. Would it be helpful if elected officials representing the area reinforced that message rather than fanning the flames? I think so.

  6. Tom Paine says:

    A typical lousy piece of late night NYS legislation. All done under the cover of darkness in the Albany halls of power, designed to punish NYS legal gun owners for daring to question the legality and authority of a one hundred year old law. This piece of legislation proves how much hatred there is in NYS government against legal gun ownership in NY and the vendetta that is going on.

    • Jim S. says:

      I don’t think it is hatred of legal gun owners, but I can understand a hatred of guns. Some people believe in the 10 commandments and don’t place a high priority on having the ability to kill people with ease.

  7. Dan says:

    I hope people are actually reading this legislation. I’m no lawyer, so bills can be confusing to read, but what I take from it as far as the “Park” issue is concerned is that Parks are clearly off limits to firearms possession and the Adirondacks and Catskills are labeled as parks, so there needs to be some clarification if the Forest Preserve is not considered a park. So, I’m with the politicizations, and they are on both sides of the isle, who call for that clarification. I’ve reached out to the Gov’s office and State Police and can’t get that clarification.

    Next, what’s not being talked about is the safe storage component, which requires all firearms, not just handguns, to be locked in a fireproof, impact proof and otherwise inaccessible safe, and out of sight, when a vehicle is not occupied. That means when myself, my brother and anyone else carpooling to our hunting spot (which we often do) and stop anywhere, including a convenience store for coffee, we need to lock our guns away. This is all but impossible. First, few portable gun safes hold more than two firearms. I haven’t looked, but I’ve heard few are fireproof, and unless you drive a full-size vehicle, hiding will be difficult. This is clearly a burden on hunters and those going to a firearms range and makes no sense and many will not be able to comply. If the cases/safes aren’t available, it’s not different than the micro-stamping law they passed earlier, calling for the use of a technology that is not fluent and despite a similar law being overturned in California.

    Anyone with bad intentions will never obey these laws, leaving those of us who do vulnerable. These people who pass these laws never engage with true stakeholders that are affected by them, including county governments and law enforcement agencies. I hope this is overturned and Hochul is voted out in November.

    • JB says:

      Dan, I’ve read a fair bit of law, and you’re not alone in thinking this bill is especially convoluted and ambiguous. The process during the special session was also especially non-transparent. Banning concealed carry on Forest Preserve is nothing new (assuming exceptions for hunting will actually materialize.) Requiring that handguns are not left unattended in vehicles is nothing new. The bigger problem is going to be the new permitting (and recertification process). Ultimately, this law discriminates against marginalized people. People who lack the resources to keep up with the new training (and recertification requrements). People with disabilities that prevent them from hunting with rifles. Maybe transgender people, or people on the autism spectrum. Etc. An oppotunity was missed to pass real, sensible gun safety laws. We need to realize that the mentality that “if everyone cannot or will not do something, then no one should” is a far greater threat to civil society than anything.

  8. COL (R) Mark Warnecke says:

    While the Governor stands before the cameras with her armed security detail present, she tells law abiding citizens they can no longer carry a concealed weapon for their own protection. Those in favor of this law are welcome to comment on how she is more important than the rest of us.

    • ADKresident says:

      Right? It’s the same way they exempt themselves from wearing masks, dining out or getting their hair cut during a pandemic lockdown, failing to practice reducing their own carbon footprint by traveling in SUV’s/private jets, living securely behind walls/gates around their homes, getting rich off of inside trading deals etc…the list goes on…and on…

      Yet, in their minds it’s all self- justified behavior because they are ‘entitled’ to a higher standard of living, with superior moral values than the average American, who inconveniently has to breathe the same air and share the same world with them.

    • Dana says:

      We also have armed forces – professionals trained with weapons. We use armed forces and police for protection as well. If we put firearms in the hands of every American capable of holding one, would gun violence go down? Then it would just become an arms race. Would we feel safer though? Worldwide statistics shows correlations between citizen gun ownership and citizen gun violence. One exception is in countries where civil war is rampant. Do we want to go there?

      • ADKresident says:

        Or ….do we want to go “there” where the 2nd amendment rights have slowly eroded to the point where only a few have the “right” to own and defend themselves. If that happens, what would happen when/if a tyrannical gov takes over, maybe not now but in the future? And if people think that could never happen in America, that is dillusional thinking, coming from a place of false security, complacency and blind allegiance to political leaders, who time and time again are failing the American people, are full of crap and destroying everything they touch. It only takes one generation of losing rights for the next to become totally under dictatorship. I will never understand, after proving themselves to be total hypocrites, (profiting bigtime off being a civil servant for decades) why people continue to trust and vote these same people in office over and over again. Do we forget they work for us, not the other way around??
        The right to bear arms is one of the greatest privileges we have in this nation, setting us apart from other countries set in place for the reason of tyranny, having escaped tyranny.

        Do we want to go “there”? “There” can lead down 2 completely different roads and what we decide now will determine the rights of future generations, or lack of. If you want to look ahead, you have to perceive it from all possibilities and perspectives, not just one.
        And unless evil is totally eradicated from the earth, the probability of tyranny is always at hand , as well as those who use guns to murder innocent people for sport. Which “there” is worse?

        • Jim S. says:

          A tyrant tried to take over the government on January 6th.

          • Michael Tomaino says:

            and he succeded. “biden the scamnificent” and the rest of his ilk surrounded our capital with barbed wire and killed innocent people. They created a “insurection” and played it to look like Trump Supporters were responsable. They are still creating lies and wasting American taxpayer dollars. They corrupted, stole and lied their way into the Whitehouse.

        • Steve B. says:

          There are 393,347,000 guns legally owned in the U.S. That comment about “only the few” is complete B.S.

          • ADKresident says:

            Steve B- You totally took what I said about “only the few’ out of context. Surprise, surprise.

            • Steve B. says:

              Hardly. Your comment implies that few can now legally own guns to defend themselves. Thats what your post said essentially. Not the case when you look at the sheer numbers of guns owned in the U.S.. One statistic is “Thirty-two percent of U.S. adults say they personally own a gun, while a larger percentage, 44%, report living in a gun household. Adults living in gun households include those with a gun in their home or anywhere on their property.” A third of the population is hardly a few.

              • ADKresident says:

                If you actually read it in context, I was not talking “now” but in a future scenerio- “IF” gun ownership rights slowly eroded to “only a few” were legally allowed to own a gun. Obviously, that would mean a buy back program or gun confiscation would’ve had to take place, which is not a far fetched possibilty being both Hilary Clinton and Beto O’Rourke both talked about wanting to do that- a perfect example of the erosion of the 2nd Amendment.

                • Steve B. says:

                  Buy back proposals I read about are almost entirely oriented towards the AR15 type rifle, used predominantly in many mass murders. I wish they would include automatic pistols with removable magazines as well, that’s a long shot. Basically, there are still multitudes of types of weapons that would not be under a buy back and would still be owned. Is it really an “erosion” for these weapons to be removed from private ownership ?, Personal defense is entirely possible with a .357 magnum revolver or a 5 shot pump action shotgun in a home (preferred in any case). The idea of a “militia” as referred to in the 2A seems to now be interpreted as every citizen and if that’s how people categorize themselves as justification for gun ownership, then the “well regulated” phrase is viable. That’s the conversation needed.

                  • Zephyr says:

                    Exactly. Most of us understand there are many people who are safe and responsible gun owners, but we don’t think average citizens should have military grade weapons designed for killing people efficiently. The average Adirondack citizen knows this and realizes that some commonsense limits on guns are needed.

                  • HunterChick says:

                    The automatic pistols to which you appear to be referring are already illegal in NYS, without a highly specialized (and challenging to obtain) permit. The scholarly literature relating to the efficacy of buy back programs in reducing gun-related violence is unfortunately abysmal at best. Individuals who choose to perform illegal acts (categories under which mass shootings and murder fall) are not the ones with whom logical appeals work. I truly wish that it were different.

                    .357 magnum revolvers are not at all practical to carry by small-framed individuals. Doing so removes the entire possibility of conceal carry whilst simultaneously making personal defense much more challenging for people whose biological sex, gender, age, or small physical frame already make them a more attractive target to unstable and violent people.

  9. Todd Eastman says:

    What a great big gun you have…

    … oh my…🙄

  10. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Todd says: “Was there any consideration given for sensitive locations like churches that have congregants who are armed to protect them against an active shooter?”

    Recently I stepped into a church on a Sunday morning in a rural area New York.
    I spoke to the pastor of the church before the service as he was greeting congregants at the door. I mentioned to him my recent visit to Rupert, Vermont, where, on a Sunday, I went up to the door as a service was taking shape within, and the door was locked, I couldn’t enter. It never was like this in the past as always…. churches kept their doors open during their services.

    The pastor and I got to talking about this, about all of the shootings and there’s been robberies at churches also, and this is what he said: “My brother-in-law just retired from pastoring and he did his church the same way, the doors were locked. He had, legally, three members of his congregation that stood in the foyer area and they were armed. This was near blank in blank at blank, NY, very recently…..he has a permit to carry.”

    This pastor told me, in reference to robberies and all of the school, and other, shootings across the country: “A lot of churches were robbed in the blank, NY area, and that’s when the board decided, ‘okay, we’ve got men in our congregation who have legal permits to carry, they’re going to be here, our doors are going to be locked and they’re gonna have their weapons with them.’ They let the congregants know about this and they were okay with it.”

    So here we have three elders who have permits to carry guns and the church board discussed this matter and it was okayed for them to stand at the door with their guns tucked-away on their persons so as to protect their congregants, all of whom were okay with it. And now New York is taking that away from them. So yes I agree with you Todd. Hochul is another reason why the democratic party is failing, because she’s looking at the next election cycle only versus thinking straight.

  11. Charlie Stehlin says:

    I was thinking! Ever since our last commander-in-chief’s administration there was a major uptick, and a whole lotta talk about, our rights and freedom of this and that, including speech no matter how hurtful or hateful or untruthful that speech was which, by the way…..is very apt to influence in a negative way those who are not playing with a full deck in their noggins. And so when you have a certain school of say, politically incorrect, divisive, propagandist talking heads, who have an agenda and free-reign on a podium which reaches out to the huge masses, some (or many) of whom are not playing with a full deck…..it creates problems, some of which is very relative to what we’re talking about here. It ‘is’ the guns but it also is not the guns as much as it is the guns in the hands of the wrong people, people which this society has in some very large, maybe passive, subtle, ways created, by way of allowing things to come as far as they have because of such. There’s being okay with freedom of speech, but what about the damage ‘that’ free speech induces. What about responsibility and morals and doing what’s right! The very people who come on here and talk about their rights to bear arms, which I am not against, are the same ones who beach about those very other rights that they’re all for no matter how much those rights are what I believe to be a major part of our woes, even if indirectly they support those other rights, whether they be the right to lie, to feed hate & racism, etc. through legal mediums such as Twitter and whatever the hay else those podiums are which the unenlightened sheep flock to.

    It’s more than this! It’s high-tone pride, it’s a deviation from what should be the norm, it’s a dysfunctional parent, or parents, a dysfunction which bleeds into their children and becomes mania in the next generation. It’s an hereditary inclination, it’s religion, it’s prejudice, it’s ignorance, it’s so much more than we’ll ever come to realize…..

    We, not we as in all of us, get what we deserve insofar as we helped create the very things we’re in opposition to, unknowingly or not! Think on these things next time your partisan stance becomes radioactive!

  12. COL (R) Mark Warnecke says:

    If I could do one thing that would make this country a better place than what we find ourselves in now, it would be term limits for all state and federal political positions. Let’s get back to the days when political office meant serving the people and your country, not enriching yourself and your friends. Term limits would end career politicians, limit lobbying, and put the government back where it belongs, of the people, by the people, for the people.

    • Nora says:

      Very well said Col Mark Warnecke !!

    • Former DC Lobbyist says:

      On the contrary, term limits will empower the staff and the lobbyists. If you want to “get back to the days when political office meant serving the people and your country, not enriching yourself” reduce the amount of money in Politics. The Supreme Court decision that said corporations are people and the Citizens United decision, that allowed unlimited political spending has been the cause of the worst effects.

      • COL Mark Warnecke says:

        DC Lobbyist, In addition to term limits, I certainly support campaign finance reform. I find it appalling that I’m asked to donate to a congressional campaign in a state or district I don’t live in. That should be left to the citizens of that state/district. And yes, limits on corporate donations and individual donations. All support putting government back in the hands of the people and not political professionals.

  13. Zephyr says:

    I have to add that the supposed “need” to protect oneself and family with weapons is much, much less than it has been historically, at least in the USA. The murder rate is way down from where it was decades ago. There are very few random murders anyway, especially in the Adirondacks. Half of all gun deaths are suicides, and quite a few are accidents. Those who argue that places like their churches have to now be locked and guarded with weapons are not in touch with reality, which is that mass shootings and random murders with guns are very rare in the Adirondacks. Much rarer than they were decades ago. Of course record keeping is terrible, thanks to Republicans fighting against scientific data collection as some sort of infringement on their rights.

    • ADKresident says:

      Scientific data, Zephyr? Do you really want to go there with this current administration and political environment , when your “woke” party is both ignoring and denying the most basic biological facts and promoting the most asinine, borderline, insane policies that do everything to ignore and disregard very basic and easily proven scientific data ?

      So, cut me a break with the “cherry-picked”, so-called, scientific data that is conveniently used for the “political narrative of the day” to make themselves look good for votes, but does absolutely nothing to solve any real problems.

      BTW, have you walked the streets or taken the subway in NYC lately? You should get out of the ADKs and take a little field trip. Its an eye opener.

      • Zephyr says:

        NYC is one of the safest major cities in the USA, with a much lower gun homicide rate than most others. New York State is also one of the safest states for firearm mortalities, with a rate that is well less than half that of Texas. The firearm mortality rate in Wyoming is almost five time that in NY. The facts are that blue states with stronger gun laws are much safer. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

        • ADKresident says:

          NYC is one of the ‘safest’ major cities in the USA? Yes, it USED to be until the genius de Blasio was mayor, and now the useless Eric Adams who is all talk, no action and a useless DA., Alvin Bragg, who fails to prosecute criminals.

          Like I said- don’t go by my word or the so-called ‘stats’. Go CHECK IT OUT for yourself and then come back and tell me how ‘safe’ it is today in NYC. Clearly, you have not left the ADKs in the last couple years to see the rapid decline with your own eyes, or you blindly believe the corporate bought & paid for propaganda machine called MSM.

          The truth is, NYC is currently nothing but a lawless hellhole, and if you take the subway or walk the streets, it is at your own risk! OR you can sit home, google stats and continue to be bamboozled by the lying talking heads who dictate the data entry talking points- just like with Covid. And we all know now how that data was manipulated for political purposes.

          • Steve B. says:

            What utter nonsense. Ive worked in Brooklyn for 40 years, am in “the city” constantly and find your description as something you heard as talking points on Fox News. The FBI statistics show the following NY State cities as having higher crime rates – Newburgh, Poughkeepsie, Kingston, Middletown, Wallkill, Mount Vernon.

            • ADKresident says:

              Wrong. Where did you get FOX talking points, anyway? Wrong assumption, Steve B.
              I have eyes to see for myself and don’t need to be told by any so-called news source that there is an obvious decline in many ways, besides safety in “the city”. It’s a disgrace.

              • Steve B. says:

                I object to “lawless hell hole”. Very much over the top. Are there problems ?. Always. Its the biggest city in the U.S., so no avoiding crime, everplace has crime. But the crime statistics do not agree with your overall description. And as BTW, I too thought DeBlasio was terrible, hopefully somebody will talk him out of running for future office, he’s an idiot.

    • Dan says:

      The only time I’ve heard guns and scientific data used in the same sentence is when we’re discussing ballistics and reloading. Now that’s physics!

  14. Michael Tomaino says:

    “record keeping is terrible, thanks to Republicans fighting against scientific data collection as some sort of infringement on their rights.” You made it political by actually blaming Republicans?
    According to the scientific data you apparently covet concerning attacks and murders in churches and other public places, they’re committed by the insane liberals that make up the perverted democrats..

    • Joan Grabe says:

      Poor Zephyr,
      Here in the Adirondacks guns are the partisan divide we are not going to straddle, not here and not now. Those who own guns and interpret the 2nd Amendment one way and the others, those who do not own guns and have no desire to own one or many and consider the 2nd Amendment to be some quaint relic of the past. I am not looking for a well regulated militia (altho we have some quasi legal ones like Oathkeepers and Proud Boys ) since we have police departments and sheriffs and the best armed services in the world to defend us on the land, in the air and on the seas. I feel safe mostly but I get a queasy feeling when I hear about armed men in church vestibules. I think I would rather stay home than attend church under those circumstances.

      • JohnL says:

        Hi Joan. The police, sheriffs depatments, and milirary do an AWESOME job for all of us. No question. Nobody in the Pro 2A movement questions that. In fact, pro 2A people probably appreciate them a lot more than most people do. However, if somebody is in your house or trying to carjack your car (while you’re in it), and wishes to do you or your family harm, the help you need may be minutes away when seconds are all you have. That’s where the need for guns to protect ourselves sells itself. Another equally important aspect is that firearms help to deter a portentially tyrannical government from seeking to subjugate us. And of course, last, and maybe even least, in the grand scheme of things, there’s hunting.

    • Boreas says:

      “…insane liberals….perverted democrats.”

      Gun ownership and control is a conversation that MUST happen. Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness, trumps the poorly worded 2nd Amendment written when flintlocks and cannons were essentially the only firearms available to the regulated militia. Name-calling and talking without listening will not stop the conversation or guide any reasonable compromise.

      This country was envisioned to embrace compromise, not prevent it. The Constitution and its amendments are not written in stone. The Constitution was designed to be altered over time as needed. But naked, rabid politics needs to be removed from the process, and the will of the People should be paramount. Without civil compromise, we invite civil war.

      • ADKresident says:

        Oh, I will gladly give up my guns — when every politician walks the streets they govern, unarmed, living their daily life without armed security, having removed the iron gates from their protected homes & lofty communities.
        Then, we are positioned to have a fair conversation with everyone standing on & in the same playing field.

        • Steve B. says:

          This is the call that everybody should be armed for their own safety. Is that viable ?. How does that affect the police to have to deal with the potential that every traffic stop has them potentially dealing with an armed citizen, does that work for them ?, or does that significantly increase the danger when they perform their duties. Does it work to have multitudes of armed citizens potentially acting as vigilantes for a variety of incidents of what they might perceive as an illegal action by a fellow citizen. Does having multitudes of armed citizens make society safer ?, I question that. Right now the requirements in many states to own a gun are so lacking in training and ownership responsibility that it questions the viability of having many armed citizens. Perhaps that aspect of it needs to be thought through. I have no issues for people to own guns for legitimate reasons, hunting, home, personal and business protection, but question whether some types of weapons, namely rifles and pistols with removable magazines are required, or is it feasible to hunt and to protect yourself without the weapon that has become the rifle of choice for mass murders. Can we have a conversation about whether or not that particular type of rifle (AR15 and copies) are to be allowed to be sold to non military or police ?.

      • JohnL says:

        The 2nd amendment has been upheld in a number of major Supreme Court rulings over the past 230+ years. The most recent of these rulings corrected the overreach of New York state on legal carry restrictions. If you believe in our system of government, then that is the law of the land.
        Having said this, there are processes to change the Constitution, one of which is the amendment process. Everyone that believes in our Constitution is welcome to start the amendment process at any time. If you don’t believe in our system of governmment, I don’t have any suggestions for you.
        P.S. If you believe in a living U.S. Constitution, you must also believe in a liviing Adirondack Park and Forever Wild Act that reflects the needs of a larger population for greater usage which requires more roads/parking lots, cutting more trees….etc etc.

        • ADKresident says:

          Well said, JohnL.
          Imagine that- As a Constitutional Republic, there is an actual amendment process. Who knew?

      • Michael Tomaino says:

        Now do all the other modern conveniences that also didn’t exist back then..are you prepared to give up all electronics, medical treatment, medicine, communications, motor vehicles? No? Then your opinions on gun rights are irrelevant..

      • Dan says:

        Hey Boreas, how would you feel if they altered the First amendment (and a few others)? That’s why we have the Second.

  15. Good Luck says:

    Our Gov. is making new gun laws that are illegal, The courts should shoot it down. Our Gov. thinks she is Hitler

  16. Zephyr says:

    Did anyone read the article? This law does not prevent you from possessing or carrying firearms when engaged in hunting or when on forest preserve land, including in your home. And as I wrote above, nobody needs to carry firearms around for self protection anywhere in New York, one of the safest places in the nation in regard to firearms mortality. Maybe a reading comprehension test should be required for firearm owners.

  17. louis curth says:

    Gun legislation: What does it mean?

    This topic has elicited 47 comments thus far. They reflect many strongly held opinions on the subject seemingly offered mostly by men.

    The volume of response to this topic makes me wonder why we readers show no similar enthusiasm in offering comments about any of the other timely topics of equal importance, perhaps more so, that most certainly will affect the lives of Adirondack men, women and children and even American democracy itself far into the future.

    That old saying about “moving the deck chairs on the Titanic” comes to mind…

    • Zephyr says:

      Tribalism. The gun crowd is reflexively against any and all legislation with regard to guns. It has become a line in the sand for them. Their reasoning used to defend their positions is often as silly as their belief in the last election being stolen. Utter nonsense, making it impossible to have a reasonable discussion. Unfortunately, we live in a world where some people do not believe in facts.

      • JohnL says:

        Once again Z, you amaze me. No-one, and I mean NO-ONE, is more ‘reflexively against any and all legislation’ than the readers on this site regarding Forever Wild or Climate Change, er, Global Warming. Write an article entitled “Let’s build more trails for snowmobiles’ or “Climate Change-Fact or Fiction’ and watch this site explode with outrage. See if there are any reasonable discussions on those subjects.

        • Boreas says:

          Yes – TRIBALISM. Unhealthy in all aspects of civil discourse. “Reasonable discussions” are a quaint thing of the past – like active listening, ice cream socials, and smiles.

          • ADKresident says:

            Tribalism exists on ALL sides of every debate, but mostly online where you can hide behind a keyboard, spew names and never have to leave your house. However, when face to face, such as in ice cream social, smiles and active listening, as you say, Boreas, I do not believe that to be true “on a whole” or a thing of the past, unless one chooses it to be- I find most people/colleagues whom I interact with each day to be generally cordial, kind, agreeing to disagree when there are differing POVs. Unfortunately, Social Media, IMO, is much of the culprit in fostering Tribalism, as nowadays, you have to be consciously intentional to interact face-to-face with those whom you may not agree with, but still value as a person/friend. We, as humans, are far more valuable than a policy or opinion, which can change at the drop of a dime, and how we view each other as humans over POVs is a choice we all face daily. I am trying to be more aware of that for myself in such a digital hostile environment.

            • Boreas says:

              I agree to a point. We can act cordially face-to-face, but that doesn’t mean our tribalism goes away when we turn away. Sometimes that is even scarier than naked aggression. Social situations have little to do with how we act and react in private – including polling places – where our decisions often set the stage for more division. Given the choice, most of us will follow our tribal instincts – as you say – especially when anonymity is available. Hopefully, we are raising a more reasonable generation of open-minded citizens.

              • ADKresident says:

                Tribalism will always be- but it does not necessarily need to be a negative thing, as it is defined in this comment string, since there will always be various cultures, faiths and beliefs, which will never go away- and why should it? Conformity is not unity. Differences are unavoidable and inevitable.

                So if we disagree with decisions being made, the place we hash it out is at the polling place / ballot boxes- leaving it for the constituents of each district to decide.

                Other than that, do you know of any better way to live respectfully and peacefully together?

  18. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    So, for those that don’t think that there is a need (by the way, it’s really about the right, not the need) to concealed carry, what about what just happened in Greenwood Indiana? A legally armed citizen defended himself and his fellow shoppers at a mall (will now be illegal in NY) saving who know how many lives.

    • Zephyr says:

      Sure, the Black Swan event happens once in a great while, but studies show that there are many more incidents where someone’s gun is used against themselves, or is discharged by accident, or is found by a child. And then we see where almost 400 armed police were unable to prevent a massacre in Uvalde.

      • Dan says:

        One stat that is not known is how often a gun is used, often unfired, to thwart a crime. Most incidents are never reported. Like the time a friend of mine and his girlfriend were swimming and picnicking at a normally busy day-use area, but were alone and were approached by three guys who wanted to know if they had any “extra” beer. Things went south real quick, especially concerning the girl, until he “accidentally” exposed his .357. Granted, this happened in the 1970s, but I’ve heard of many other similar incidents at gas stations, ATM’s and places where people appear to be vulnerable.

        The assumption that “everyone” will be carrying is off-base. It takes a lot to get a pistol permit in NY, you have to have a clean record and it can take weeks or months. None of that changed with the SCOTUS ruling. The queen overreacted.

        If someone is not comfortable carrying a firearm, no one is asking you to. Just leave the rest of us be, you can’t tell if we’re carrying anyway, and enough with the added restrictions. We don’t want to use a firearm, or hurt anyone, but we also don’t want to be in a position where we later regret not having it and and we’re not confident the queen can guarantee anyone’s protection. People tell me they want to “feel” safe. But feeling safe and being safe are two different things.

  19. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    But one armed citizen might have.

    • Zephyr says:

      The active word is “might.” Even the good guy with the gun would prefer not to shoot it out with someone armed with an AR15 and wearing body armor.

  20. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    Makes your target easy to identify.

  21. Todd Eastman says:

    The gun serves as an icon to many seeking to live out their childhood fantasies of becoming heroic if the circumstances fall into place…

    … most Americans don’t share those fantasies…🙄

    • Dana says:

      Indeed! Our unique six-gun mentality is disturbing. In most countries, gun violence and gun control is not even a discussion. Must be nice.

  22. MJTomaino says:

    Wow.. Your comment is so far from accurate it borders on insane 😳

  23. Plow boy says:

    I would submit nothing over these many decades has
    changed the reality of when they outlaw guns
    Then only outlaws will have guns

    • JohnL says:

      Pretty much says it all PB. Thanks.

    • Steve B. says:

      Nonsense. Outlaws and law abiding citizens will ALWAYS have some form of guns. What they could consider is outlawing weapons that allow rapid reloading and which enable a mass murder thru the use of multiple loaded magazines. You still get to keep your 6 shooter. Outlawing many types of weapons would shut down the business making these guns, thus fewer types and fewer numbers are available and what is available is highly expensive for criminals. Enforce federal laws about ghost guns and enforce laws about phantom buyers. This is not rocket science, it’s been done successfully in other countries and could work here if people could just understand that part of the responsibility of owning a gun is the need to make the rest of society safe. How many elementary aged children need to die before you are willing to consider restrictions ?.

  24. louis curth says:

    Guns: 68 comments and counting and still the opinions fly every which way (with men dominating the discussion – as usual) .

    Meanwhile, the women of the north country must be wondering what the heck just happened to the 50 years of autonomy over their bodies and their reproductive health that just vanished under a Court decision manipulated by Republican sleight of hand that would put Harry Houdini to shame?

    I wonder what Republicans, (my former party), have up their sleeve next? How about rescinding the right to vote for women? Or how about a new law allowing 10 year old girls to marry, so that Republicans won’t have to try to explain away uncomfortable headlines like the rape of the ten year old girl who just became “collateral damage” in the looming threat to women and children, as a result of this draconian and ill advised court decision.

    The young people must also be shaking their heads in despair over the silence and empty promises of our political elites in response to every new and more dire warning about what their world is becoming?

    And what about all those valiant north country Democrats? Our alternative choice for those voters of a more progressive bent who disapprove of a Republican Party that continues, despite any tangible proof, to look the other way and poo poo the attempt on 1/6/21 to carry out the violent overthrow of American democracy.

    Oh, but I forgot, north country people don’t have election choices because we trusted our elected Republicans to work for our needs, so therefore, we no longer have two viable parties to compete on the ballot in most of the north country.

    Shame on you Democrats! Shame on you Republicans! Shame on us all for being too gullible – or maybe too lazy – to become involved in keeping democracy strong and healthy and making our system work for the needs of the people – all the people.

    To fix our democracy, I believe we need to start at the local level by restoring the power of “community”. Many good things will start to happen if we can do that.
    Anybody got a better idea?

    • Zephyr says:

      Yes, start at the local level and raise your voices whenever possible, and never miss a vote. Unfortunately, they want to get rid of that untidy problem by putting in places systems to reject the votes they don’t like. A good start is to never vote for a Republican for any office from dog catcher on up. They have become the party of treason that wants to overthrow the government.

    • ADKresident says:

      I almost spit out my coffee laughing, the content of this comment was extremely ludicrous. But thanks for the chuckle, louis curth- I needed that!

      • Balian the Cat says:

        ADK – Serious question. Your tone and attitude over the years on this forum has been pretty even keeled, so I am going to take the chance: How do we sit down and work any of this out? How do we dial the rhetoric down so that neighbors who disagree can find a way out of this before it’s too late. I don’t expect you to fix the world, but as someone who thinks differently than you but isn’t all that keen on our just retreating to our corners until the bell rings – how can I meet you in the middle?

        • Boreas says:

          BtC,

          Ah – the crux of the discussion. Do we still have the ability or even the will to compromise?

          We used to elect individuals to positions where THEY would do the heavy lifting – negotiating and compromising on our behalf – in hopes of moving the country forward over difficult issues. When this was not possible, we could defer to the judgement of a reasonably neutral Supreme Court.

          Today, we elect people only to vote the way we want with NO compromise. We appoint SCOTUS members for purely partisan political decisions – never mind it is a lifetime of political decisions that may not be appropriate 20 years from now – even to the same party who inserted them!

          We certainly are currently a divided country, and corporations, politics, idealism, and rhetoric are pushing us further apart. Perhaps we need a peaceful reboot.

        • ADKresident says:

          Balian the Cat, I appreciate your willingness to even reach out and want to meet in the middle. I can only share how I can maintain friends/collegues who have differeing views without compromising my own convictions/beliefs, yet remain in good relationships.

          It is my belief that MOST Americans are either a tad left or right of center because most of us are guided by good, old-fashioned common sense. But what the media, social media and the current political culture does is paint everyone to be in the extreme left or extreme right, creating an enemy in each other’s minds. We do not have to accept that narrative! I believe we need to stop looking at each other through the lenses we are being peddled to wear . We probably agree on more issues than we disagree on, but you would never know it because we are being manipulated to view each other through extremes, only being pointed to the extreme positions on both sides.

          For instance, take the abortion issue, most Americans do not agree with a late-term, up until the moment of birth abortion for any reason. Their common sense knows, even if you are pro-choice, that that is the termination of a perfectly formed, baby- a human life. Yet, the current administration is pushing for no term limits and abortion for any reason up until birth(and in CA, even AFTER birth for 28 days, and if a baby survives the barbaric partial birth abortion ‘procedure’- and it is barbaric- look it up if you have never witnessed one), all on taxpayer dime. And if you are against that, you are labeled as denying women ‘reproductive rights’, when in actuality, abortion on demand up to the minute of birth is very extreme. Wouldn’t you agree? Heck, even eagle eggs are protected by law (as they should be), but not a 3rd trimester baby? We just need to think it through, without all the emotion because most are not even aware of what they are actually advocating for….or

          Gun rights is the same way. Why are not the laws on the books already being enforced in many states? As a gun owner myself, I have no issues with needing to go through proper training or background checks before purchasing or upping the age limit to 21, etc, etc..Let’s talk with practical reasoning, and not either extremes…

          Do we, as a nation, really want to devalue all mothers by reducing her to being called a ‘birthing person”. We would never call a father a ‘seed supplier”?. We can all support LGBTQ rights without dishonoring women and removing the uniqueness & rights of women, particulalry in women’s sports. Let’s stop with the extremes and meet in the middle.

          My point in bringing up these examples up is how we can find common ground using common sense and take the time to dig deeper into the issues, and not just automatically view and label each other as being extremeists or domestic enemies…I may be center right, you may be left, but if we view each other as neighbors first, and start from the center point instead of the extremes, by intentionally finding the common ground first , I believe we have a chance to meet somewhere in the middle, without retreating to our corners .

          I do not have the answers, obviously, this is just how I navigate these days. It’s easy to be nasty and devisive and too widely accepted as the norm. It’s up to us to change that, making respect and kindness the norm. One can hope,right?

          Sorry – this was so long.

          • Balian the Cat says:

            No apology necessary – it’s exactly what I was hoping for. As I am not sure that the two of us debating the specifics here would amount to anything helpful, let me say that there isn’t anything you said that I couldn’t calmly respond to, learn from, or use to inform my own points of view. At the very worst, I feel I could say “lets agree to disagree” and move onto things where finding common ground might be more fruitful. Your response gives me hope, and that’s a big deal these days. Thank you.

            • ADKresident says:

              I concur with your remarks, Balian the Cat, and can raise my mug in agreement, toasting to “lets agree to disagree”, when needed, yet still remain cordial and carry on while dining at the same table asking, “Neighbor, will you please pass me the salt & pepper? “.
              🙂

          • Nora says:

            Excellent read

  25. JohnL says:

    Thank God this guy was breaking the rules in the mall. Dozens of people owe their lives to him. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/07/18/22-year-old-killed-indiana-mass-shooter-armed-constitutional-carry/

    • Charlie Stehlin says:

      I didn’t go to your link JohnL but read in the news this morning about this event. The NRA is drooling by now!

    • Jim S. says:

      Only 4 people dead, guns are wonderful aren’t they. I’m glad the shooter was stopped, however this proves to me that easy access to guns in this county is never going away and we need to get used to a lot more innocent people being massacred because they live in America.

  26. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Steve B. says:”What utter nonsense. Ive worked in Brooklyn for 40 years, am in “the city” constantly and find your description as something you heard as talking points on Fox News.”

    I know people who live in Brooklyn, and have met others whose kin are living in Brooklyn, and I hear nothing but good things about the place. It has become a thriving community the years of late, especially for artists. Sure there are some sections that do see their share of violence but that’s everywhere. This is the problem with media outlets….who do you believe. Them or people who have firsthand accounts.

  27. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Steve B says: “Are there problems? Always. Its the biggest city in the U.S., so no avoiding crime, every place has crime.”

    Tis so true! There’s crime they don’t report also, and I’m talking about small-town USA (15,000 people, or more or less), which has its ramifications even if nobody is getting shot….yet. One of those crimes is domestic abuse which is soaring but which we never hear about. There most certainly are a great number of dysfunctional people amongst us who are planting seeds for the next generation, and which eventually we will hear about. Nothing is new under the sun.

  28. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Boreas says: “…insane liberals….perverted democrats.”

    That’s all you hear when you turn on right-wing radio Boreas, which I do every now and again just to be reminded, and I can only stand it for less than a minute. They’re just full of hate and divisiveness! I don’t know how people put up with it, but evidently some just love feeding on it.

  29. Charlie Stehlin says:

    louis curth says: “The volume of response to this topic makes me wonder why we readers show no similar enthusiasm in offering comments about any of the other timely topics of equal importance”

    There are comments to timely issues louis, just not the comments we’d like to hear in too many cases. This same fiery bunch who love their guns are against issues that are of far more significance in many ways (did I hear ‘abortion’). How about global warming! The gun crowd (which I’m not against I stress once again) are (generally) the same bunch who deny that the planet is cooking. I just heard on the news this morning about the fires in Europe, record heats & draughts, over 500 people dead in one area from such just in the last week. This is why the republicans in congress don’t act, one of the reasons anyway…..because they need those anti-science, denier votes. It’s despicable that they won’t man up! They will when their constituents start feeling it in their wallets which is surely now in its embryonic stage. Or maybe that’s wishful thinking on my part. In the end we all lose, there will be no future generations, and if there are, they won’t be living in the world we once lived in, even just as recently as ten years ago.

    Guns are a carrot is all. Just like abortion is. (You cant tell me that Donald Trump gives two hoots if a woman aborts a fetus or not! He’s an expert liar is all.) Dangle the few carrots just to win votes, to serve thy self………….. never mind that the world is falling apart all around us!

  30. Charlie Stehlin says:

    louis curth says: “the women of the north country must be wondering what the heck just happened to the 50 years of autonomy over their bodies and their reproductive health that just vanished under a Court decision manipulated by Republican sleight of hand that would put Harry Houdini to shame”

    Here’s my thought on this ultra right wing, radical conservative Supreme Court louis! It’s not going to work! Here is why I am optimistic about such. Look at what has been taking shape in parts of the world where ultra right wing governments have/had control. Take Syria as one mere example. Those Syrians finally got fed up with being suppressed by their right-wing government, they had to get to where there was no lower dimension than what they faced ten or so years ago, and took to the streets……and look at the devastation and loss in that region of the world, all of the beautiful lives lost, millions displaced. If we don’t wise-up soon we’re going to have the same here! Americans are generally stupid and the whole world knows it. You’ll see them driving down the streets in their pickups with flags that can be seen a mile away, or huge flags attached to their houses just to let everybody know they love their country whereas in reality it’s the American way of life they love, a football being passed around in a field, their cars, their houses.

    Okay, so maybe i’m being cynical in my sardonic way, but you must admit…i’m not far off. This far-right movement which is taking shape, not just here in sleepy America, but all over the world, is going to be the precipice of which the planet tumbles over. Human nature is what it is but when you have a mind which perceives black and white only, or the image in the mirror only, problems persist………….. I wrote a thesis on this subject when I took a community college course in Tampa and received an A on it. So maybe I was onto something back then and maybe still I am.

    The reason why this ultra right wing, radical conservative Supreme Court will fail eventually louis is because, in this country there are far more Americans who just don’t fit their mold. You watch! It may take a generation, hopefully not two, but there’s going to be a storm from all of those who will be negatively affected by the suppressions they impose on the general masses, which is most of us whether most of us realize that or not, even those religionists quacks who are ready to vote for Donald Trump all over again just because of the abortion issue alone. (Remember the carrot dangled!)

    Recall the protest in Troy, NY a few years back after, I think, the George Floyd murder by a police officer, where over 10,000 protesters showed up. That is a heckuva large crowd, and there was no violence it was peaceful. The size of the crowd is what is significant here. It indicates a microcosm of the whole, and you can bet if things get bad enough, Americans are going to take to the streets and say “Enough!” Let us just hope it’s not too late by then.

  31. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Zephyr says: “A good start is to never vote for a Republican for any office from dog catcher on up.”

    Yes, a good start Zeph, but miles to go before there’s peaceful sleep! I don’t see any hope the way things are. Climate change alone is what’s going to be the grand wazoo of all, and they’re still not talking about it. They as in we know who. You wonder how so many people can be duped so easily. And the lies! They continue to exude forth. They can’t stop lying now! They cannot imagine coming this far and then fessing up to the sheep….we lied. Is why the charade continues. Our poor grandchildren! They’ll be nothing left!

    • Paul says:

      Great idea. Let’s become a one party monolith. Last thing we want is any sort of differences of opinion being expressed.

  32. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “most of us are guided by good, old-fashioned common sense.”

    I’m all for sitting down and having a rational debate and finding some middle ground, but first there must be coming down to reality ADK.

    • ADKresident says:

      And who, Charlie, may I ask, are you referring to needing to “come down to reality?”. Are you implying that only you and/or whomever you align yourself with has the ultimate handle on all reality? Because, if that is your position, you have already boxed yourself in and closed the lid.

      Let’s face it. NO ONE has it all correct or walks in 100% truth. If you think you do, that would make you the ultimate authority of just about everything and never needing to learn from anyone, except from whomever you already agree with, which isn’t learning but only reinforcing what you already believe.

      A little humility goes a long way, if one truly desires to find common ground. But like with everything, even wanting to find common ground is a personal choice. I wouldn’t expect that all desire to be on board, but it would be nice. So be it.

      • Balian the Cat says:

        I think it’s also true that many of these issues are complex and I, for one haven’t figured out where I stand on some of them. ADK, you took a chance above, so let me reciprocate: If I was forced to check a box, I would say that I am Pro Choice – but that does not mean I am pro abortion, it means that I think people have rights where their bodies and health care are concerned. I am guessing that my personal definition of fetal viability is different than some, but I don’t know and would need to do a lot of thinking if I was ever faced with the horrible choice. I would, however, like to think the choice belonged to us. Also, I hunt and have taken some fine walks with a rifle, but I am aghast at recent gun violence and can’t help but wonder about statistics that show the outrageous disparity between the ratio of gun ownership and related deaths in the US compared to countries where stricter laws affect availability. Again, I simply don’t know – but I want to have the conversation without being called a communist. To be clear I MIGHT BE WRONG, but if we don’t talk we can’t move out from under the puppetry of those who use their station to position us against one another. I’m tired of being used to fight the proxy war set up by the “powers that be” to enrich themselves.

        • ADKresident says:

          I agree with you 100% regarding the issues we face to be complex and much cannot be solved primarily through legislation and politics. We have to encourage one another to be more intentional at keeping peace within our own spheres of influence, as well as conduct our own research beyond corporate media (left or right), thinking for ourselves- apart from the narrative of the day. There is so much being voiced across the airways and digital platforms that expect us to blindly accept what is being fed, without question.

          I also agree with you that the ‘powers that be’ purposely sow seeds of division daily to enrich themselves in order to remain in power by using both corporate and social media as a tool to sow disunity. To me, they all sound like mockingbirds that receive their morning email talking points of the day and spew it to the masses, and like spaghetti on the wall, hoping most of it will stick and what doesn’t, change it up for the next day, as long as it keeps the division going.

          Lastly, I believe there is not solely a left or right answer to the issues we face, but only truth; and truth is impartial to taking sides. If anyone loves and seeks after truth, they will find it. It may be a daily challenge, but we have to be open to perceive it, as it can come from anywhere and anyone- left, right and everywhere in between. JMO…

        • Mary Lou Giuliano says:

          Thank you. Such a rational “moving forward” way of thinking, and SO lacking from a large bit of our population who align far left or far right and can’ have a discussion or even consider trying something different.

  33. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “I believe we need to stop looking at each other through the lenses we are being peddled to wear.”

    If more were able to think for themselves we wouldn’t have any of this ADK! So how do we get through to the sleepers which is a very large chunk. I suppose if more of the millionaires, or billionaires, were enlightened, then maybe those media platforms can be bought out, or all of them bought out, and from thereon start feeding those easily-influenced sheep science and truth and history and philosophy….. We’re going in the opposite direction of this. Been! And look at where we are!

  34. Paul says:

    Is sighting in a rifle on Forest Preserve land considered “hunting”? Not all of us have our own private rifle range. Or do I need to have some proof that I am sighting it in for “hunting” not for something else? Also, don’t we want people using firearms to train and practice?

  35. Paul says:

    What I see as an issue here that probably scares some gun owners, even if the guns are only used for hunting like myself. The focus is supposedly on trying to stop gun violence. Gun control advocates say they need this or that “reasonable measure”, but then it is almost always followed by “this is just the start”. So what is next it is important to have that on the table for a discussion. When we see the governor put forth legislation that clearly impacts hunters despite saying they are not the target people wonder. Why are we making it more difficult for a person to legally buy a type of gun he or she has been able to access for hunting for decades. Permit system for a semi-automatic rifle or shotgun? Plenty of hunters (like myself) are probably okay with a ban on assault style rifles federally. But if that is just the “start” then what is the finish? NY is making it clear, they are not just going after mass shooters, or criminals, they are apparently want additional restrictions on all legal gun owners.

    • Steve B. says:

      I actually do not think the intent of NY legislation is to stomp on the rights of the mentally healthy AND law abiding gun owners. Thats not to say that the current law doesnt have issues that makes law abiding gun owners upset. Thats the way with laws passed in a hurry. The bail law is similar, chock full of problems they just didnt think thru. I think many NY state level politicians want to ban so-called “assault rifles”, just don’t have the courage to actually get a law passed and they are aware that it would fast track to the SC whey they might get lose.

  36. louis curth says:

    99 comments to date, and as I look over what has been written, all I can say is WELL DONE! The thoughtful comments expressed here provide a template for how we might restore civility to our interactions with other people who differ from ourselves in some way. That, in turn, could be the opening gambit toward working together for the benefit of all the people who live and visit this wonderful Adirondack – North Country region.

    Thank you all for giving me a bit more hope in the future than I had before this exchange, and thank you Melisaa for being the outstanding editor that you are.

  37. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “who, Charlie, may I ask, are you referring to needing to “come down to reality?””

    I thought about that comment after I sent it out. I didn’t mean it in the way it sounds, I jumped too soon when you said, “most of us are guided by good, old-fashioned common sense.” Not to go political (which is damn near hard to do as most of the problems we face are tied to the same), but I couldn’t help but think about the 70 million people who voted for who will most assuredly turn out to be the worst, and most idiotic, egotistic, president this country has ever reckoned with, the one and only Donald. Common sense? This is the fix we’re in! Vote for an idiot because the other is a threat to narcissistic personality disorder, or “our wallets.”

    I keep a very open mind ADK I won’t box myself in, and I know good from evil, right from wrong, and all in all I generally have a good sense of a snake oil salesman when his or her words come to my ears, and the eyes…..I can see deception in them. And when I’m wrong i’ll be the first to fess up to it, which not everyone has the capacity to do evidently.

    A little humility goes a long way sure, but a lot more humbleness would do civilization a world of good ADK, especially to those in charge, those ones with the fat wallets who might eventually come down to earth once they see that they too have nowhere to hide, no escape from reality (if it even ever sets in!), the very one’s guiding us to whatever end it is we all face! I like your attitude though I don’t always agree with you……sobeit! It is what it is!

  38. Charlie Stehlin says:

    “Paul says: “Great idea. Let’s become a one party monolith. Last thing we want is any sort of differences of opinion being expressed.”

    The every definition of where the republican party stands today. The party of suppression. Suppress votes, ban books from libraries…………………… Need I say more?

    • Paul says:

      So you are saying yes we need a one party system that comports to just what you believe is important. At least you are being honest.

  39. Charlie Stehlin says:

    I’m not saying that Paul. We need something better than what we have which I don’t think is going to happen. What we have today is what was predicted well over 200 years ago. There are so many dimensions to this, it’s not just one or two things, and it’s more than what most of us will ever come to realize unfortunately; and those who should know are the very ones who are in charge and have created what we are up against.

    I submit thus from my literary collection:

    “The origin and progressive history of nations is ever an interesting subject of contemplation. With their fortunes are connected the liberty, the happiness and almost the very being of our whole race.– But the germe (sic) of national existence and liberty is generally planted in a soil, luxuriant of the frailties, the ignorance and the vices of man; and like the infant of days, their commencement is distinguished by nothing but the imbecility.–The world has witnessed many nations, which have gradually emerged from such small and feeble beginnings, and have continued for a while the brilliant monuments of the influence of virtue, freedom and glory; until, at length, they have been swept away by the flood of national corruption, and have left no traces behind them, but melancholy ruins of desolated greatness. In the checkered history of national prosperity and suffering, we have read, and wept at the fate of some states, which in the vigor of youth, and the full possession of freedom and glory have fallen, guiltless victims, to the sword of foreign tyrants or domestic traitors…….”

    From: An Oration, Delivered in Middlebury, Vermont at the Celebration of the Fourth of July, A.D. 1809 by Samuel Swift Esq. July 1809 paper J.D. Huntington printer

    • JohnL says:

      You may be surprised to hear that I agree with you and Mr Swift. It’s the way many great societies have come and gone over the milllenia. Actually, not many people will disagree with the presmise of his speech. However, where you and I disagree Charlie, is with who is responsible in our case for the ‘flood of national corruption’ that is bringing us to that fate.

  40. Charlie Stehlin says:

    “where you and I disagree Charlie, is with who is responsible in our case for the ‘flood of national corruption’ that is bringing us to that fate.”

    I assume you’re thinking that I think it’s the republicans ‘only’, which if is the case…is not so. Or if you’re saying the democrats are moreso the culprits, yes we do disagree on the matter. So far that is where I stand anyway.

    • COL Mark Warnecke says:

      Two interesting statistics from the DOJ. In 93% of crimes committed with firearms, the firearms are obtained illegally (I wish I knew if this includes suicides, but I don’t). I hesitate to post the second as I have a high respect for police officers, but I will throw it out there anyway. Concealed carry permit holders (I assume this means from states that require a permit for concealed but it’s not clear) are less likely to commit a crime than police officers. Not sure if this means any crime, or crimes involving a firearm.

      My point being, if it’s so dangerous to have citizens legally carry concealed weapons, where are the statistics showing the firearms involved crimes committed by them?

      • Zephyr says:

        I know it is pointless to point out facts to 2nd Amendment fanatics, but for example the Donohue study showed that states that adopted right-to-carry laws saw a 13-15 percent increase in violent crime. https://news.stanford.edu/2017/06/21/violent-crime-increases-right-carry-states/

        Plus, it is obvious if you compare state crime statistics that states with stricter gun laws have a much lower percentage of firearm deaths. It’s pretty much commonsense–less guns around, less gun deaths. If two people get into an argument over a parking space or something else, would you rather they be armed or not? Or, look around the world where gun deaths are very rare, and mass shootings not a weekly occurrence.

        • COL Mark Warnecke says:

          Zephyr,
          If you’re implying, I’m a 2nd Amendment “fanatic”, I’d say your wrong. I don’t believe everyone should own a firearm; I don’t believe everyone has the right to own a firearm. I am a fanatic about the Constitution however, and its amendments. I also believe in the process for amending the constitution, which was obviously provided for.

          I’ve read the source you cited and there are a couple of takeaways.

          ” Donohue applied the synthetic control approach using four previously published statistical data models that had generated conflicting panel data estimates of the impact of RTC laws on violent crime. In all four cases, the synthetic control estimates showed increases in overall violent crime of 13-15 percent.”

          So, while this study shows an increase in violent crime in states that passed RTC (right to carry) laws, it just becomes one of, as it points out, several studies that show conflicting data. It also fails to show the cause and effect or direct correlation to RTC. In other words, it fails show that the 10 to 15% increase in crimes were committed by those now carrying as a result of the RTC, and not some other factor or factors.

          “Moreover, one can incur all of the costs of buying and carrying a gun, only to find that a criminal attack is too sudden to effectively employ the gun defensively. Donohue cites a 2013 report from the National Crime Victimization Survey that showed in 99.2 percent of the violent attacks in the United States, no gun is ever used defensively – despite the nearly 300 million guns in circulation in the country today.”

          Ok, while this may be true, the operative, (if you want this to objective), question should be, what percentage of these victims were legally carrying? Then the follow-on questions would be in what percentage of these attacks (those legally carrying concealed or open) did the firearm serve as a deterrent (no shots fired) or was it used in successful defense. To be fair the question should also be in what percentage of the cases was the legally carried firearm taken away from the victim.

          • Zephyr says:

            There are many studies showing that concealed carry does not make anyone safer, but it is impossible to answer every what-if and what-about-ism brought up by pro-gun folks. The bottom line is that throughout the United States and the world in places with stricter gun laws there are less firearms deaths–it is obvious, less guns around means less gun deaths. Your concealed carry weapon can be misused or used against yourself. In New York more than 50% of gun deaths are suicides. Nationally I believe it is more than 60%. I will never forget how a local family was devastated when their child was killed playing around with a gun left unsecured. Google “firearms instructor shoots self” to see how things go wrong even with well-trained individuals.

  41. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    Subtract suicides, there are any number of ways to kill yourself. With or without guns. Accidental shootings are valid statistics. Cite ypur sources show the facts. Please show me the number of crimes committed by concealed carry permit holders in NY.

    • Zephyr says:

      I pity those cowards who think carrying a gun makes themselves safer, while ironically it puts them in greater danger of what they fear. Meanwhile most of us go about our lives without fear without carrying firearms, particularly in the Adirondacks. I can tell no argument, no study, no fact will change your mind. Sorry you live in such fear.

  42. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    And John, exactly what I was talking about. Unfortunately facts are not relevant to many when emotion leads the way.

  43. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    Zephyr,
    No I pity you. You seem detirmed to atribute characteristics to me when you have no idea who I am. I’ve not done that to you. I suppurt your right not to carry a weapon. You want to take mine away. I’ve made my living defending this country. I want to enjoy my retirement years without being called names by someone who doesn’t me. I’m sure of this. You’ve never needed a weapon. I have. Dam glad I had it.

    • Zephyr says:

      I apologize for that statement in which I did not mean to impune your motives, but only to point out there are many fearful people that arm themselves only to put themselves in greater danger. I have no idea if you carry or not. You may be a firearm expert and follow all the safety procedures and still mistakes happen. But, the average person carrying because they are fearful is an accident waiting to happen, and if for some reason they grab the gun in a panic they often shoot themselves, a loved one, or the wrong person, if they manage to hit anyone.

  44. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    And, I speakng of fear, I’m not afraid to use my name.

  45. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    Yes, and people unfortunately are killed every day in automobiles. Doesn’t mean the fix is to make them illegal to drive.

    • Balian the Cat says:

      COL Warnecke – I am grateful for your service. I am a gun owner who’s mind is open to the concerns people have regarding gun violence. I am aware of the glaring statistics which appear to show a correlation between gun availability and gun related crime, especially in this country when compared to other western nations that have different regulations and processes for ownership. As somebody who has been in harms way, do you think it wise to allow individuals quick and easy access to military grade firearms? (I am thinking about some of the .223 platforms specifically) because I think that’s a place where we might be able to find some common ground as we explore this issue.

      I understand that there are people who view the 2nd amendment as absolute and that the SCOTUS is in the process of defining it, but there should at least be a dialog in my opinion.

      Also, unfortunately, there are those of use who use pseudonyms for practical reasons.

      • COL Mark Warnecke says:

        Balan,
        Well, that’s an interesting area where I believe we should have a dialog. Unfortunately we find ourselves today in this country where each side digs in and refuses to listen to other feelings and opinions. Concerning the 2nd amendment I think we should stop arguing over does it mean for a “well regulated militia” only, or does it preserve the rights of individuals to own firearms. After all Jefferson said it’s purpose was that the government live in fear of the people and not the people in fear of the government. Someone could extrapolate what Jefferson said to mean they should be able to own a fully functional M1 tank.

        So, the topic of “assault’ weapon” ownership. I’m a gun owner but I don’t own one. I personally don’t have a problem with someone owning one (I am a proponent of background checks with mandatory jail for those the violate) but I also see the logic in how much they facilitate mass casualties of innocents. It’s simple functionality. You can’t fire a bolt action as quickly as you can a semiautomatic. Does that mean that no one should be able to own one? No in my opinion, but I’m just one citizen out of 300 plus million.

        My point is I think we as a country should have the discussion, and rather than argue about the intent of the 2nd amendment, (I don’t think either side on the extremes will ever agree about it) we may need to amend it. I say amend because legislative and executive branches of government can continue to pass laws that will continue to go to the SCOTUS which will continue to make rulings that will continue the argument of what the intent of the 2nd amendment means. Through an amendment, even if it’s only to clarify and update the 2nd amendment in todays terms, because that’s the best platform for the people to truly speak. I hope that makes sense.

        So, to come full circle, as someone who has a concealed carry permit (for 40 years); someone who has run ranges for military and law enforcement professionally for many years; someone who has served in combat and lead our greatest asset, young soldiers in combat; I find this new law ill conceived and an infringement on what I see as my inherent right to self defense. From my personal stand point, it’s also insulting to me.

        But hey, I will listen to anyone who will listen to me without insulting me, making innuendos, or trying to bait me into an argument. If I violate any of these, then please ask to correct myself. That’s my 2 cents. Well, maybe 2 dollars worth.

    • ADKresident says:

      Exactly, COL. ( I, too, appreciate your service)
      And when citing stats on all violent crime, both domestically and in other countries, who is comparing the crimes & murders committed by means of knives vs guns, or guns vs fists or blunt objects? All means of “weaponry” used to kill another human being should be evaluated when viewing stats, if you want to support a position to reduce or ban ownership. . I would reckon knives are probably pretty high on the list used in violent crimes, but no one considers banning knives, reducing the production or access to knives ever and everyone owns them. We just don’t hear of it because knives cannot be used as a political football . What they choose to magnify is what gets the most attention.

      So, I am curious- have there been studies/stats on knife deaths, accidents and crimes vs guns conducted and then compared to other nations? Just because there may be less murders committed abroad by less guns, does not mean there is less murder; it just means that with less access to guns, other ways to are used to kill. Possibly?

      • Balian the Cat says:

        Gentlemen,

        Thank you both for your comments and observations. If nothing else I believe we have demonstrated that dialog can occur and civility maintained. I will process your words as I consider my own views – which are not so far to the left of yours that, were we in charge, some meaningful compromise could be reached – and I hope that ADK is correct in his assertion that most Americans hover around the center and that this fact might prove our salvation.

        And aside, ADK – Your last point above reminds me of the great scene from All in the Family where Archie responds to Mikes concerns about gun deaths by asking “would you prefer they was pushed outta windows.” I do not know the answer to your good question and I don’t mean to make light of such a serious subject, but that’s how my mind works sometimes.

        • ADKresident says:

          Balian~ thank you for conveying respect, even towards those whom you may disagree with in these dialogs. Being the example of civil discord, in itself, is quite an accomplishment these days, and as ADKers, we can prove it to be not only possible but prioritize it to be the norm on how we treat each other!

          Just a side little note: I’m not a gentleman…I should maybe rename my pen name from ADKresident to ADKgal…which makes me sound young, adventurous and, of course, pretty! haha 😉

  46. Charlie Stehin says:

    COL Mark Warnecke says: “the topic of “assault’ weapon” ownership. I’m a gun owner but I don’t own one. I personally don’t have a problem with someone owning one”

    Fine COL but! Nobody needs an assault weapon! Nobody! For what? Shooting deer? Mice? Just knowing the violent nature in the human animal is reason enough to ban these weapons. We’ve gotten along, not exactly fine, without them for how many centuries! And now these guns are out there and getting in the hands of evidently the wrong people, over and again…… and look at all of the people killed thus far, including little boys and girls. Little boys and girls while in their classrooms at elementary schools mind you! Could you imagine sending your little precious child off to school and then having her or him shot and killed there by a misfit whom this society created?

    We’re living in different times and knowing the violent nature in the human animal (which we do nothing to correct, or check), we need to really think hard about what kind of future we want for those children yet to be. Condoning things which have no merit whatsoever is not the way towards resolving our woes! With your comment above I at once see you in a new light.

  47. Charlie Stehin says:

    “Exactly, COL. ( I, too, appreciate your service)”

    I have never understood the pride, nor do I see any ‘thing’ of value, in honoring people who are trained to kill their fellow human beings on this planet….oftentimes over lies (per the Iraq War for one!) All of the destruction and death and then to make heroes out of those who committed such! It’s weird to me that mindset! I suppose so long as it (that mindset) continues we will continue to have wars.

    • ADKresident says:

      Charlie, I feel sorry for you that you cannot see value in honoring our military. The majority of us Americans both honor and appreciate them, since they are the ones who have and continue to lay down their lives for our national security/freedom- even the freedom to be speak your mind with disrespect, such as the callous disregard you just made regarding, COL Mark Warnecke (as if he/we citizens are the cause for world wars) – so uncalled for, IMO.

      Funny, I’m starting to notice by your comments a great similarity in character traits between you and Pres. Donald Trump, whom you despise. Both of you are blatantly honest in what you believe, can be quite crash, and speak your minds without apology. Not necessarily a bad trait, unless spoken in malice – something only you & God would know.

  48. Charlie Stehin says:

    COL Mark Warnecke says: “Unfortunately we find ourselves today in this country where each side digs in and refuses to listen to other feelings and opinions.”

    This is a partial truth! There are some good people out there trying to rationally get-on about the serious issues we face, yet there’s those who will have nothing to do with any of it, including select members of a school in this country who ignore scientific data, and refuse to take notice of realities, even if those realities manifest in front of their eyes. They are possessed of a sickness of sorts!

    • COL Mark Warnecke says:

      Well, I see that while I was out for the day some interesting dialogue has transpired. Balian, thanks for stimulating the conversation and making me think!

      Mr. Stehin, I should have clarified on the digging in statement so indulge me now please. I mean on the extremes, far left and right. I think the vast majority are somewhere towards the middle. I also have this theory that politics is not linear, but rather circular. The extremists on the right and left are very much alike in their methods and goal (control of the rest of us).

      ADKresident, if I might, your observation seems to support this, if I’m interpreting it correctly. And yes, statistics can be made to support or counter almost anything. However, if we really want to hear the truth (not hear what we want to hear, a failing I must admit of my younger days) they can be very enlightening. In other words, you have to ask the right (often the hard) question and be prepared to listen to and even accept the answer.

      Mr Stehin, you are entitled to your position on assault weapons. I’m entitled to mine. Part of it gets back to the 2nd amendment and its original intent. I truly believe that the founders meant what Jefferson said, that the government live in fear of the people. Has that time past, well I would say when we those that feel through the government, they can enforce their will at the expense of the freedoms and rights of law-abiding citizens, perhaps it has not.

      As to honoring those who serve and have served, when I was a younger man once, anyone who spoke against those that served would make my blood biol. At some point I had an epiphany. If I truly believed in my oath, then I needed support those that disagreed (their right to their opinion) with equal if not more vigor than those the agreed with me.

      Mr. Stehin, your entitled to feel the way you do. That right was paid for with the lives, blood, sweat and tears of those who serve and have served.

  49. louis curth says:

    This conversation continues to amaze me in a good way. What began as comments about gun legislation has continued and spun off into numerous tangential issues to the tune of 134 comments with no end in sight.

    By and large, the way commenters have presented their views has been courteous and tolerant of other people’s viewpoints, and opinions are often are backed up by facts and solid reasoning. I think Melissa’s “goldilocks” editing style is just right for making all this work so well. (I just wish I could get her to trust us all to get down into the weeds and slug it out on more of the existential questions that threaten to turn American democracy and our natural environment into an American wasteland in coming years.)

    After teaching hunter safety and carrying NYS guns for decades, my thoughts are turning elsewhere to other important matters. How can I help my granddaughter, Melissa’a daughters and all the other young people who will be left holding the bag living on a greatly disfigured planet? How can we get the current generation of aging “geezers” to take on this fight?

    But, at least we can be civil to each other in our comments – and that’s a start…

    • ADKresident says:

      Louis curth,
      As stated in this and a previous, similar article relating gun control, I and others here have stated in our beliefs that it is a complex issue, needing multifaceted solutions, to which knee-jerking gun control legislation alone will never fix. We have to dig deeper to get to the roots.
      I had come across this Video on Ted Talks with a testimony of a young man telling his story on how he almost became a school shooter. I would encourage anyone to view it, as it reveals many of the roots of what is truly going on in someone’s mind and heart and how they can get to the point of committing such a horrendous act . No one is born a mass murderer. What was a real eye opener for me was what turned him around- a simple, selfless act of kindness. To me, that is one of the most important virtues we can pass down to our children.

      If you care to view, here is the video:

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=azRl1dI-Cts&t=20s

  50. Balian the Cat says:

    I agree with ADKs perspective on this. The 2nd amendment isn’t going anywhere and the two camps debating it (though this is a vast oversimplification of things too) can and should sit down and find the things we can all agree on: Is concealed carry really that big an issue? I personally doubt that anyone who goes through the hoops to obtain such a permit in NYS is the mass shooter type. Also, having been out west, I find the notion that somebody may or may not have a fire arm on their person much less concerning than seeing the big dude in the grocery checkout where open carry is the law. Conversely, maybe there is a conversation and wiggle room when it comes to rapid fire long arms that are chambered for calibers designed to inflict devastating wounds in large numbers on the battlefield? So, while reasonable people debate these types of things, lets all rally to end the stigmas around mental health issues, lets fund the police and other programs which train deescalation techniques and warning sign awareness. If Red Flag laws are working in a pro gun state like Florida, lets drill down on that. Stop the incessant yelling and demonizing and do the things we can do. Perhaps the first step would be to apply some critical thinking where the “news” we gather is concerned. Maybe a little less CNN and Fox and a little more the local town hall and hardware store?

    • Balian the Cat says:

      …and then lets use the same methodology to discuss Climate Change, Reproductive Rights, Race Relations, &Etcetera. Before anyone accuses me of pollyannaism, please believe that I know full well how pie in the sky this is. I am just sick and tired of the stress, resentment, and anxiety that comes with all this division. I am public enemy number one when it comes to intolerance of the viewpoints of others, so if I can sit down at the table and try, perhaps there’s reason to hope.

      • Boreas says:

        BtC,

        It is a shame the iconic “Mayberry” barber shops are mostly a thing of the past. A place where an opinion wasn’t stomped on – just bantered about. Today’s social isolation breeds a lot of this antipathy because it interferes with our ability to listen in real time.

    • ADKresident says:

      “Maybe a little less CNN and Fox and a little more the local town hall and hardware store?…”

      I concur. True journalism is one thing that needs reviving, as it has eroded to everything but unbiased news . But first, we the people need to wake up to how the news is now being generated and fed to its viewers. Creating news stories/articles based off social media, fed talking points and segments of opposing media corporations is not news and what most current media consists of, thus feeding the dog of division. When was the last time you tuned into MSNBC, CNN, FOX, etc and actually watched an unbiased, investigative research journalistic segment, without the added personal, tainted bias on either side or regurgitated talking points?

      I don’t believe it is hopeless- just more people need to wake up and begin to engage with one another without anger and stop allowing ourselves to be manipulated into seeing each other as the enemy.

      Corporate media/ratings is big busine$$! Do some research and FOLLOW the MONEY! Blind trust to all corporate and social media outlets has to end. jmo

  51. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “Charlie, I feel sorry for you that you cannot see value in honoring our military. The majority of us Americans both honor and appreciate them, since they are the ones who have and continue to lay down their lives for our national security/freedom- even the freedom to be speak your mind with disrespect….”

    I expect as little from you ADK. When you say majority what do you mean by this? That word is a huge talking point I hear from those on the other side of the fence whenever they get up on their podiums and spew to their flock, “The majority of Americans this and that…” It’s a crock ADK. It irks me whenever I hear such as I know it is an outright lie. Maybe to their constituent majority yes, but not the rest of us. (There’s people out there who actually believe that the Sandy Hook School shooting was a false flag conspiracy by democrats to prove how easily duped some people are!) It’s a talking point only which sheep are misled to believe by liars whose aim it is to gain more power and wealth while the rest of us increasingly barely subsist.

    And there’s that famous line, “they are the ones who have and continue to lay down their lives for our national security/freedom.” Whatever you say ADK! Drink more Koolaide! Just like they laid down their lives in Iraq for our freedom I suppose you’re going to say next! Or how about Vietnam where we lost over 50,000 of our brothers and sisters. So what do you propose? I leave the country because I don’t honor soldiers who deploy to foreign lands to kill other humans? They’re just unenlightened humans to me who chose to arm-up and kill others which I don’t agree with, so I should honor them?

    And where the hey do you get ‘disrespect’ from? For me expressing myself freely? Speaking my mind? So you’re of the mind that all Americans should be like you and go to a military parade and salute it as it passes by. Speaking about disrespect! What about January 6 ADK! That vicious crowd who did all of that damage, the policemen who died as a result of it, and others! How about our Vice President being threatened to be hung! And the small person who started all of that is running again to be President and look at the crowds who praise him. There’s something wrong with this picture and I assure you it has nothing to do with my thinking. Don’t feel sorry for me ADK. I’m fine. It’s mindset’s like your that worry me.

  52. Charlie Stehlin says:

    COL Mark Warnecke says: “I think the vast majority are somewhere towards the middle….. ”

    > The middle is losing ground COL. Without the middle we’re done as a country. Just read the history. I pluck a bit from my literary collection which will do a better job than me at explaining such:

    “When in any country there are only two classes, the very rich and the very poor, or when the tendency of the political regulations is to produce this effect, as is the case under all aristocratical governments, the consequences must be bad. The middling class, as it is sometimes called, that is, the portion of the community that lies between the two extremes of riches and poverty, is its strength, intelligence and virtue. Of course we may infer, that that country is the most prosperous and happy which has the greatest proportion of this class of citizens. In no country on the face of the earth, is the middling class as relatively large as in our own. How then are we to maintain ourselves in this enviable condition? Or if, as is feared by some, we are gradually declining from it, and individuals amongst us are becoming too rich, by the accumulation of capital, and others getting to be too poor and threatening to become burdens upon society, how are we to remedy the evil and prevent its recurrence?”
    From: “Inequality of individual wealth the Ordinance of Providence, and essential to Civilization” A Sermon preached before His Excellency John Davis, Governor, His Honor Samuel T. Armstrong, Lieutenant Governor, The Honorable Council, and The Legislature of Massachusetts, on the Annual Election, January 7,1835 by Jonathan M. Wainwright Rector of Trinity Church, Boston 1835

    “The extremists on the right and left are very much alike in their methods and goal (control of the rest of us).”

    > You should phrase yourself more carefully COL! I don’t study up on these things but isn’t is so that this whole world, including these not so united states, is in the throes of right-wing extremism these years of late. It is certainly on the rise in this country! Not leftist extremism (which some would call tax dollars going to those in need), but right-wing extremism on the rise. I cite January 6 as the most current example. Are their methods the same? I most certainly cannot imagine leftist going to DC to hang their Vice President because he refused to lie to the American people.

  53. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “No one is born a mass murderer. ”

    Yes! Society made him that way! Which leads to the nut, ‘we should be wary of what we say and the way we present ourselves in front of a gullible, unenlightened audience!

  54. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Balian the Cat says: “The 2nd amendment isn’t going anywhere…”

    Yes, and it’s not like this is a one-side-of-the-fence issue, or that there’s a mass movement to totally ban guns! Liberals have guns too, and it is my understanding many of them are arming themselves for the first time due to all of the right-wing hate which is pouring out from the media outlets, ie. shooting at targets depicting democrats at gun ranges, etc. This is how low and divisive we (not we as in all of us!) have sunk! Some of these people have never thought of ever owning guns but are changing their minds as American society continues to fall into a primitive state.

    • ADKresident says:

      Yeah, Charlie- some days I’m scared to step out of my house! All those evil, low-life, divisive, right-wing haters could be hiding in my bushes, waiting to shoot at my democrat neighbors, miss and hit me! ! Everyone better arm yourself and run for cover!! There’s millions of unenlightened red-capped people everywhere, just looking for a liberal to shoot!!

  55. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Balian the Cat says: “Is concealed carry really that big an issue?”

    It could be Balian! Very easily so! Just look at the Trayvon Martin case. This one example alone is why I wouldn’t want to live in a place where everyone is allowed to carry a concealed firearm! There’s a heap of people minus smarts out there I’m here to say! Just knowing human nature in itself gives me the jitters in thinking about it. I’m not against guns and I sure would trust myself with a gun moreso than I would another, but is this what we really want? Everyone armed to the teeth! It seems to me this is what the republicans want. Armed guards in every school, etc.

    Maybe we should talk about pouring money into “education for all” so that maybe in one generation we could reverse course, start seeing more of society with light in their eyes versus the zombie look we see nowadays. As has been some whisperings of late, maybe we should pour money into mental health. Geez! To think where all of that money could possibly come from. I know! We can end wars! If we did that just think….. we’d have enough money to build a new school, plus a mental health clinic, in every community across this great land USA. Maybe then we wouldn’t have to worry about everyone being armed to the teeth anymore! Maybe then the bloodied corpses of little boys and girls won’t have to be hauled off from their elementary school classrooms!

  56. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Boreas says: “Today’s social isolation breeds a lot of this antipathy because it interferes with our ability to listen in real time.”

    And where is this coming from Boreas? Social media, which parallels the ‘social isolation’ you mention, is a major part of why all of the dysfunction, the sedated spirit, the empty looks, the copy-cat killer enthusiasm. Just look at us! Look at photos in the rags….a common sight to see is a automaton looking into a handheld device. Schoolchildren at bus stops, five of them near to each other, all of them looking into a device….social isolation! Or maybe social distancing would be a better terminology. I saw this once! I wanted to take a photo, to freeze the dysfunctional moments, but I was passing by and it was just one of those things, and besides…I had cars up my arse. It’s very sad but what are we to do about this, what some call progress? Methinks a can of worms was opened!

    • Boreas says:

      Charlie,

      Although I dislike today’s pro sports, and sports in general (because of my inabilities, not idealism), one of the few bright spots I see is getting kids out of the house and onto something other than pavement. Scouting was a big thing when I was a wee lad and I was physically able to participate fully until my troop folded due to a lack of leaders. Sports, scouting, nature activities – anything that can get a few kids outdoors talking and interacting with each other and their REAL environment (not a virtual one) certainly helps with keeping kids socially engaged and out of the basement planning attacks.

      But it isn’t the kids, it is absentee parents who are responsible. Families with both parents working is the norm now, and there is precious little time for kids. Humans did not evolve with parents spending 1-2 hours/day socializing with their children. Socializing skills are now taught by proxy, often employing the devices you mention. Parents feel they stay “in touch” with their kids via smart phones, but do they really? Humans are not wired to truly “communicate” with our fingers/thumbs. We communicate mostly with our eyes, ears, and voice. A face-to-face conversation requires an entirely different skill set than a text.

      But I believe our kids are being led away from face-to-face communication, and this sets the stage for isolation down the road. This isolation leads to input from various good and twisted sources all producing clickbait for profit.

  57. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “I don’t believe it is hopeless- just more people need to wake up and begin to engage with one another without anger……”

    …..and hate, and division, and lies!

  58. louis curth says:

    ADKres, – I gave a listen to the Ted Talk that you recommended. To say that this young man’s story should be utmost concern would be a gross understatement! America is already paying a high price in blood, treasure and talent for ignoring our young people of every stripe who are are vulnerable and need our support. And although we like to delude ourselves to the contrary, the Adirondacks is not immune…

    It seems to me that a favorite trick of our political elites of both parties is to deliver endless speeches that amount to nothing and then get right back to raking in the bribes from the lobbyists of the rich and the corporate big wigs. When things go south, these same politicians cleverly dump society’s problems onto the laps of Law Enforcement and then use LE as a convenient scapegoat to blame when things turn out bad. Unless we the people (aka voters) can straighten out this political shell game, not much is going change for our most vulnerable people like the young man in this video.

    • ADKresident says:

      Yes, louis…”When things go south, these same politicians cleverly dump society’s problems onto the laps of Law Enforcement and then use LE as a convenient scapegoat to blame when things turn out bad…”

      I believe that’s a true statement, as well as many other scapegoats they choose to blame ….point to anyone and anything but them.

  59. ADKresident says:

    Charlie ,

    Sure, you are free to speak your mind – and I am free to perceive what you said as being disrespectful.

    Question: Have you considered moving to another country? It must really, suck for you to live in a country you despise, alongside millions of people who are not enlightened like you. The mental anguish you must go though each day surrounded by inferior intelligence. Surely, there must be a better country/island/place on the globe for you, that would put a smile on your face! And if you find your happy place, please do set up a GoFundMe account; it would bring me great joy to contribute towards your moving expenses! 🙂

    • JohnL says:

      ADKr. I’m with you. Sign me up for Charlies’ Go Fund Me ‘Moving to a More Enlightened Place’ account. I’m in. Maybe to a place where you’re not allowed to drive during turtle migrations or something similar. Anything to make our friend Charlie happier than he is now.

  60. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “All those evil, low-life, divisive, right-wing haters could be hiding in my bushes, waiting to shoot at my democrat neighbors, miss and hit me! ! Everyone better arm yourself and run for cover!! There’s millions of unenlightened red-capped people everywhere, just looking for a liberal to shoot!!”

    You said that ADK not me, you’re hyper-ventilating, you’re making light of reality. Your last line has a large air of truism in that it can very well become a reality, especially when you have republican candidates’ sending out videos to the “unenlightened” masses, which shows them, and others, at shooting ranges targeting political opponents rather than shooting an inanimate object. Eric Greitens from Missouri is just one of those! Real smart of him what with all of the mass shootings we experience. Wouldn’t ya say?

    • ADKresident says:

      Charlie, You need to stay off the idiot box that loves to magnify any extreme fringe being portrayed as the norm. ANYONE can find videos showing extremes on both sides and paint as the majority in order to support a narrative.

      Do you want to be associated with ANTIFA (maybe you do, IDK) or those who burned down, destroyed and looted small businesses in several cities last year under the banner of social justice? I think we, who lean center right or left are discerning enough to realize most liberals or conservatives do not support such chaos, lawlessness or the shooting of any political opponent..

      What you are painting as a reality towards your political opposition is absurdly ridiculous- borderline comical and I expect someone, as enlightened as you are, to be able to discern through the lunacy.

  61. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “Charlie….. Question: Have you considered moving to another country? It must really, suck for you to live in a country you despise….”

    I despise this country because I’m speaking my mind ADK! There you go again, hyper-ventilating! I’m still allowed to to speak my mind evidently, who knows how much longer that will last. Evidently you’re against anybody speaking their minds if they oppose your, evidently, limited views, (which is not to say I always see you in that light as there’s much I agree with you upon.)

    That line (‘leave the country if you don’t like it!) is old and stale ADK which picked up speed during the terrorism of the conservative GW years; you know…the one who gave us the Iraq War, which by the way, to shine a light on another dark spot in our Tory history….that war was the very item which sparked the incentive in Vladimir Putin to invade Ukraine. I recall him saying so back then; he said, “If America has the right to invade Iraq I have the right to invade Ukraine.” And so this great country of ours, America (under a Tory), set the precedent for the war we’re now seeing, and feeling the effects of, in Ukraine. And so Putin invaded Ukraine and look where we are! Yet the liberals are the enemy according to all of the right-wing talking heads feeding their flock. There were two camps back then during the Iraq War, one shouting out “Stop the war!”, the other shouting out, “Kill them all!” The former, we discovered after the fact, were right in their dissent; the latter….they’ll never learn from history, a mental block beholds them as is evidenced over and again.

    Where were we? Guns & the right to arm America to the teeth, dissent against freedom of speech…. and leaving the country if we don’t fit a certain mold. Same old same old when will we ever get past the incendiary devices! The truth always comes out ADK! Always! Unfortunately though, it doesn’t always do so until long after its damage is done, long after the sleepers are in their sleep that braves a thousand years.. Now, if we were being smart Americans, versus being partisan, or egotists, or being Americans in patriotic fervor, we’d snap out of this drone state we’ve been in and start attaining a little liberal in us and thinking about others for a change, cast aside our divisive God’s and start putting thought into things that really matter….like the monarch butterflies for instance which appear to be on the way out….

    There’s so much, and it’s all so very pertinent and relative to the other, where do we begin? In mental anguish yes maybe ADK! And every right to be so!

  62. COL Mark Warnecke says:

    Yup, almost as much lunacy is the catch and release justce system that sets the attempted murderer (let’s call it what it is) of Lee Zeldin free within hours. Then you wonder why some of us want to be able to protect ourselves. Not everyone lives in the land of unicorns and rainbows.

    • Dana says:

      Exactly how much protection do you need? Don’t you see the lunacy of this arms race? There is a very blurry line between protection and aggression. Indeed, is the best defense a good offense? Or vice versa?

      If we can simply agree to dial back the degree of lethality of the weapons citizens are allowed to arm themselves with, wouldn’t it at least get law enforcement back in the game? Think about the 20s and 30s when law enforcement was going after criminals toting Thompsons and BARs with their .38 revolvers. Giving everyone assault weapons isn’t the answer.

      No one is a criminal until they do something illegal – and even then are presumed innocent until proven guilty. If the average, innocent, legally obtained assault-weapon hording Joe one day snaps, no Red Flag laws are going to work. Who will be in his sights? Is he likely to target people with carrying assault weapons, or is he going to find as many soft-targets in one location as he can?

      Even in the Wild West, few people carried guns, and fewer still ever shot innocent kids in a schoolhouse. Gun deaths were low. Why is that? FEW guns, and guns that only held a few rounds and took significant time to re-load. The days I would like to see again do not include everyone carrying high-capacity assault weapons that blow people to pieces. I am OK with multiple-shot hunting firearms with limited capacity or handguns with limited capacity, but not these military weapons dispensed to everyone and anyone at age 18 before the mind is even fully mature. The world sees this as well. Why is the US so blind??

      • COL Mark Warnecke says:

        Dana,

        As long as the message sent is “go ahead and commit a violent crime, you’ll be back on the street in hours” the weapon used is academic. In this case it was a cutting implement (not even a knife) but just a deadly none the less. As I have stated, I would welcome a discussion on changing the second amendment. But (and I can hear it now, I don’t care about the horrible deaths of innocents in mass shootings, I do care) let’s not lose sight of the facts according to the CDC. The number of people killed in mass shootings in the US (of all shootings) is less than 1%.

        So, assault weapons and mass shootings are the rallying cry for passing more restrictive gun laws, but they represent only a small percentage of the deaths. Doesn’t mean we don’t to look at but at them, but it does mean they shouldn’t be the focus if we truly want to effect change, ie. reduce violent crime.

        For example, 54% of all firearms deaths in the US are suicides. Doesn’t that mean that the single largest cause of gun deaths in the US are the result of mental health issues? I while I’m not a mental health professional, I would say that most of those that commit mass shootings are also the result of mental health issues.

        I agree with your example from the 1920’s and 30’s and the banning of private ownership of automatic weapons. I also agree the police need to be at least as well armed as the criminals they may face.

        No law, red flag or otherwise, will work if we don’t hold individuals accountable for their crimes. I support red flag laws, though I have a concern about due process.

        If we hope to effect meaningful change with the violence problems that we have in America, then we need to look beyond the tools, and consider what it is that makes individuals violent to begin with. Forget the slogans that politicians of all flavors want to use to get votes, and drill down to the problems and fix them.

        But in all of this, we need to consider the victims of crimes first and foremost. Whether they be children slaughtered in a school, someone walking down the street murdered by a career criminal released by a revolving door justice system, a victim of domestic violence, and so forth.

        Concealed carry was the catalyst for this conversation with me. I believe I should have the right to continue what I have done for 40 plus years. Legally carry a concealed weapon, with reasonable limits, when and if I choose. This new law is not reasonable, it is designed to take my concealed away. Period. I object to that. NYS Sheriffs association estimates that they will not be able to get even half the current concealed carry permit holders through the required training in the required time. End result will be the loss over half the current concealed carry permits in NY and no new applicants able to be approved.

  63. Charlie Stehlin says:

    louis curth says: “America is already paying a high price in blood, treasure and talent for ignoring our young people of every stripe who are are vulnerable and need our support.”

    But of course louis! And just look at who is goading who & what! I won’t even begin to cite examples. We’re back and forth between truth and fake news and sticking to our bloody guns, right wrong, indifferent, or in denial. Our young ‘are’ paying a high price but isn’t it always that way….the children, the women, the poor! How do we get through Louis? Or better yet….how do we get those who run the show to get their sheet in order. Maybe if at once we were all one, equals to the other – rich, poor, black, white, atheist, evangelical, politician, serf. Maybe then. That just might be coming ya know, which is nothing I look forward to due to what it will be that gets us there!

  64. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “ANYONE can find videos showing extremes on both sides and paint as the majority in order to support a narrative.”

    I don’t have an idiot box ADK. That’s why I’m so smart! I do have my source of information though, low-key that I am about it. I don’t need to indulge in all of the noise to know what is taking shape around me or the world. That comes with being smart…. or aware might be a less self-aggrandizing terminology. What I said is the truth though, about republican candidates spewing hate and racism. The truth evidently doesn’t sit well with you. Shocker!

  65. Charlie Stehlin says:

    ADKresident says: “those who burned down, destroyed and looted small businesses in several cities last year under the banner of social justice?”

    Putting up a defense to rebut you is taking up too much of my precious time ADK, you are long-winded in your satirical criticism, so I will fade from this theme shortly. To what you say above! How big were those crowds at these events where this looting & other took shape? What were the percentage of those peacefully protesting and those who wreaked havoc? Do you know? Or are you just espousing what you heard talking heads spew on whatever soap box you seemingly bend towards? Serious question!

    Compare the generalization in the narrative you chose above, with the trucker, far-right convoy protests at the Canadian border which cost taxpayers a hefty millions amount of dollars, and for what? Because they didn’t want to be told that they had to wear masks, even if it was in the interest of the public good. It was about them in other words, truck everyone else….pun intended. Those protesters where the looting was done! That was about people who cared for their fellow brothers and sisters, it wasn’t about them. That’s unselfish in a big way when you really look at it, and they went out of their way to do this, to stand for other than self. My understanding regards the damage done between just these two examples…..the selfish truckers cost the taxpayers far more. Correct me if i’m wrong on this….the example you cite is proof that we’re gonna believe what we’re gonna believe even if ‘falsehood’, or ‘partial truth’ is written all over what it is we believe. What does it all matter anyway ADK! All of this small chatter while the world is falling apart around us?

    • ADKresident says:

      Touche, Charlie~ You are right! I have been far too long-winded here, and I apologize to my fellow ADKers for taking up too much space here in some of this tit-for-tat thread.

      However, I would like to say, I sincerely appreciate the dialogue with those willing to meet in the middle and take a minute to listen to each other (Balian the Cat, luis curth, JohnL and a few others) and have found it to be, on the most part, less partisan than previous threads, which may seem trivial, but is actually a good step forward. IMO

      Charlie, I surrender to you the last word and shall leave it at that.

  66. Charlie Stehlin says:

    “….the catch and release jusitce system that sets the attempted murderer (let’s call it what it is) of Lee Zeldin free within hours. Then you wonder why some of us want to be able to protect ourselves.”

    Right on Col Mark Warnecke! You wonder what goes through the minds of the many, no matter who they are, or what profession they are in. It goes to prove we’re all imperfect human beings, and that we will continually err in the decisions we make to the detriment of others, none of which is a coincidence of course.

  67. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Dana says: “Giving everyone assault weapons isn’t the answer.”

    No it’s not! And to make things clear if we take them away from the general populace, which I don’t see happening next week, they need to be taken away from the police also. A catct-22! This is what happens when the worms start crawling from their cans. We’re not futuristic……a major part of why the light at the end of the tunnel is nowhere in sight!

  68. Charlie Stehlin says:

    Dana says: “Even in the Wild West, few people carried guns, and fewer still ever shot innocent kids in a schoolhouse. Gun deaths were low…..”

    Sure Dana, but the violent tendencies have always been with us. If you go back to the old newspaper accounts, and journals, early to mid 1800’s, and earlier, murders were very common, by knife, pitchforks, whichever was the flavor back then, or what weapon was handy….. and guns (few though they may have been.) Assaults against women is not a new thing, it dates back centuries in this country. Parricide was not as uncommon as one might think way back in the day when our great, grand folk weren’t even born as yet. The lethality of each upgrade in guns is making things worse as can clearly be seen. Worse yet is our nuclear arsenals! One wonders, not if, but when do we finally do ourselves in? And if they ever start putting weapons in space, which some unenlightened (there I go with that word again!) people are all for, we may as well kiss our loved one’s goodbye.

  69. Charlie Stehlin says:

    COL Mark Warnecke says: “The number of people killed in mass shootings in the US (of all shootings) is less than 1%.”

    Meaning what? It’s not a problem?

  70. Charlie Stehlin says:

    COL Mark Warnecke says: “Doesn’t that mean that the single largest cause of gun deaths in the US are the result of mental health issues? While I’m not a mental health professional, I would say that most of those that commit mass shootings are also the result of mental health issues.”

    Maybe if they didn’t have access to guns the mentally ill might not have been able to commit their crimes with those very guns COL! No? Every country’s populace deals with mental health issues, but none have the problems we have, especially pertaining to guns. Why is that? I think it’s only a matter of time before the world follows America’s example what with the way television and other technology brainwashes. Already we’re seeing some of this as school shootings have taken place outside of our country, but not near as much as in this great country of ours!

  71. Charlie Stehlin says:

    COL Mark Warnecke says: “we need to look beyond the tools, and consider what it is that makes individuals violent to begin with.”

    That very question has been put to us for thousands of years COL. Do you think we’re going to start looking into it now? Violence sells! Guns are a big money maker! We need more than to just look beyond whatever the tools are you’re talking about….we need a major shift in the psyche of the human race. It might be a nuclear war that brings us to that. Unless Jesus appears first, and proves he really is who he says he is. Even then there will be doubter’s!

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